Scientology Watch - France trial panel discussion (on banning Scientology)

This is a particularly interesting and informative panel discussion from June 2009 that aired on on France 24.

The topic is the legal action in France against Scientology. The panelists go into some detail on a person’s right to believe anything at all, versus taking action on that belief that causes harm to others.

Rick Ross, director of the Ross Institute, a valuable resource on cults and new religious movements, makes very clear statements on where Scientology crosses the line into fraud and possible criminal activity. France does not recognize Scientology as a religion, and has found the institution and some members guilty of fraud in that context. 

The “purification rundown” was created by L. Ron Hubbard, who had no medical training or evidence supporting his doctrines. His claim of “elimination of toxins” has been found to be false, furthermore the large doses of niacin can damage the liver. In addition, denial of prescription drugs for treatment of disorders like schizophrenia may have caused at least one death — that of the Scientologist mother who did not allow her son to be treated, and who later killed her.

A point of heated debate is the nature and purpose of a list of sects the French government has compiled. Also discussed are legal proceedings against Christian Scientists and Jehovah’s Witnesses who deny certain medical treatments to their children because of their beliefs.

First a short clip on the French court’s recent rulings against Scientology:

French court convicts Church of Scientology - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Scientologists convicted of fraud in France - By Dorothee Moisan (AFP) October 27, 2009

…The latest case follows a complaint from two women, one of whom says she was manipulated into handing over 20,000 euros for costly products, including an “electrometer” to measure mental energy. …

A second plaintiff alleges she was forced by her Scientologist employer to undergo testing and enroll in courses in 1998. When she refused she was fired. 

The head of France’s interministerial body on cults, Georges Fenech, said he was sorry judges were prevented from tougher action. “I strongly regret that the law was changed discreetly during the trial, just before the trial, without anyone knowing,” he told France 24 television. 

“But I think the provision has been reinstated by parliament, so there could be a ban in future if they offend again.” 

Critics of Scientology have accused Scientologists of “infiltrating” the National Assembly to lobby for the legal change. 

Outraged by the allegation, French Scientology’s lawyer had asked the court to reopen the case to clear her clients of suspicion.

Wikipedia blocked the Church of Scientology from editing entries at the communally-crafted online encyclopedia earlier this year due to an unrelenting battle over the group’s image. 

Should Scientology be banned? Part 1 of 5:

Should Scientology be banned? - France 24 (PART 1) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Case background

Jens Tingleff on Scientolgy’s profit directive and legal tactics, and the reasons for “cult” designation

Rick Ross on behavior vs. belief, the pattern of complaints, financial exploitation, and other serious allegations

Should Scientology be banned? Part 2 of 5:

Should Scientology be banned? - France 24 (PART 2) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Raphael Liogier voices concerns regarding sect designation 

Jaques Myard, conservative MP, rebuttal 

Liogier argues against value judgements 

Jens Tingleff states Scientology is a criminal organization, citing successful criminal prosecutions, and that coercion is “written into” Scientology 

Rick Ross on the doctrine of Scientology, its financial hazards and other dangers, the empire left by Hubbard, on Miscavige attaining tax-exempt status in 1992,  U.S. government reluctance to interfere in anything “religious”

Should Scientology be banned? Part 3 of 5: 

Should Scientology be banned? - France 24 (PART 3) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

More background on this and other French court cases against Scientology 

Liogier alleges French obsession with “real” vs. “false” religion 

Myard denies Liogier’s allegations, calling them nonsense and completely wrong, and stressing focus on crimes 

Liogier re-states his concerns, admits ignorance of the current case, and admits to refusing the opportunity to assist in this trial’s defense 

Tingleff concludes that Liogier does not want to discuss the crimes, or discuss anything but Myard’s list of sects

Should Scientology be banned? Part 4 of 5: 

Should Scientology be banned? - France 24 (PART 4) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

The moderator mentions the allegation some were “illegally practicing as pharmacists,” and Scientology’s opposition to drugs for mental illness

Rick Ross on the “purification rundown,” high doses of niacin, Scientology’s war on psychiatry, legal cases against parents for withholding medical care from their children, charges of medical neglect and manslaughter

Myard cites problems with “alternative medicine” and deregulation of “therapist” treatments

Tingleff on the specifics of Scientology cult indoctrination, the price list, the rigid rules for advancement

Should Scientology be banned? Part 5 of 5:

Should Scientology be banned? - France 24 (PART 5) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Rick Ross rebuts “religious persecution” arguments, claims Rafael is wrongly attempting to re-frame the debate, clarifies the harm vs. belief issue

Liogier agrees momentarily and then argues that sects raising money is not a basis for allegations of fraud

Myard rebuts again

Scientology end-game

Bill Maher is the prototype for lazy half-educated Americans

UPDATE: FriendFeed conversation embedded at bottom.

I remind my readers: Most Americans are frankly not knowledgeable enough to read the medical literature and act as their own medical advisor. Arrogant blowhards like Maher will gladly jump the gun, thinking they’ve heroically caught someone out, and make decisions that will cause widespread disease and death. If they only had the chance. Ha ha. Tee hee. Snark snark. Oops.

I’m very open to debate. The topic is scientific (and rhetorical) literacy, and how to improve it across the board.

This one goes out to:

• Anti-vaccine scare mongers
• Alternative medicine proponents who profit from fear and confusion
• Conspiratorial junkies who would sooner believe their government is evil, than believe that 9/11 was a terrorist attack  
• Anyone who extrapolates small personal tragedies and comes to sweeping generalizations about entire groups of people
• Anyone who cherry-picks an issue of concern and thinks it grants them the right to throw all of western medicine under the bus
• Anyone who thinks their bad experience or sloppy “research” into a health concern negates decades of progress made by many thousands of medical professionals
• Anyone who thinks they have the right to draw outrageous conclusions when they aren’t familiar with the common logical fallacies — that can entrap people much smarter than they

Here is what video I could find, covering Bill Maher’s theories on the state of medicine and health care in the United States.

I’ll summarize:

Western medicine is completely useless because Big Pharma profits from illness, not health. We have made no progress in cancer treatment. Successful cancer treatment requires you leave the country for “alternative medicine.” You can be arrested for practicing or speaking about “alternative medicine.” All medical advancements are erased and doctor’s motives suspect, because of Nasonex. Vaccines are designed to kill you.

Enough preamble, let’s start the show. In chronological order. Chronos yes, Logos notsomuch.

Bill Maher - Anti-Pharma Rant - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Bill Maher on David Letterman January 3 (2008) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

The fun starts at 2:20 and ends at 5:20

Bill Maher anti-medication (2008) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Bill Maher Overtime with David Cross (Sep 18 2009) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

The fun goes from 0:50 to 3:30

Bill Maher gets schooled on vaccines by Bill Frist - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

I’m very happy that Maher’s attempted appeal to anti-government GOP partisanship completely failed. Frist categorically denied that Maher’s conspiracy theories about western medicine and vaccines had any truth to them. More to the point, how pathetic is Maher’s attempt? Does he hope GOP lunacy will save his conspiratorial behind? Thankfully, Frist won’t abandon his profession or his decency to help Maher save face.

Maher Still “Not Crazy” About Vaccinations (Oct 16, 2009) - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

I’m glad Maher seems upset and defensive here, and spent a lot of time on his final show on this topic. His sloppy thinking and cheap laugh lines only highlight the real problem here. And that is, he’d lose this debate to a smart 7th grader. 

He cites death by medical error and concludes we’re a “sick society.” His hyperbole highlights his lack of rigor, his unfamiliarity with logical fallacies and his inability to make coherent arguments. Maher does not want to admit he’s wrong. His three guests try to make fun of him gently, but no, Maher won’t back down. 

PZ Meyers wrote regarding this rant:

The most telling moment for me was when he compares vaccination to global warming and evolution; global warming and evolution, he says, are settled science (which is correct), but vaccination is not. That is not correct. Vaccination works. It’s been tested and measured and analyzed, and vaccinations save lives. It has been settled, repeatedly.

Michael Shermer has commented on RichardDawkins.net on this issue, too. Maybe someday it will sink in.

If you want more details on how angry the Scientists are at Maher, use this: 

ScienceBlogs search for Maher+anti-vacc

Here’s a very interesting analysis of Maher’s “I just want a debate” attempted exit strategy. Guess what? No dice! 

Bill Maher digs himself even deeper & the ‘I’m just a humble investigator asking questions’ gambit

I was unable to find video of his very first rant on Larry King in 2005, but you can read about it here. There, Mr. Maher. I’m now officially done with you.