Welcome to the Rick Ross forums, Cult Survivor (and a warning)

In which waterlily and I exchange greetings under the stern gaze of The Moderator. 

Our one-line apologies are in response to a warning from The Moderator about the thread topic and forums rules. We are excused, posts (and apologies) accepted even though off-topic. These forums are a permanent, searchable archive of un-censor-able free discussion on any and all Cults.

Un-censor-able in that once The Moderator green-lights something, nothing anyone else does can remove it — a Wikileaks of Cults, if you will. Were I trying to hide from any Cult I would have used a different handle.

waterlily
… 
As I get older/wiser hopefully—-I have come to really meditate on the meaning of what Christ must have meant when he spoke about his coming to divide families and that he brought a sword. I have been reading alot on this and am seeing that perhaps he was addressing the most fundamental authoritarian issue of all: the family. And how this introduction to our world via family sets the tone for everything else.

Welcome to the forums, waterlily! Boy, can I relate to what you are saying. While I am pretty skeptical of any and all “messiahs” I think it is absolutely crucial to inspect what’s left of their “message.” Assume he was a person, a particularly caring and helpful person. Assume his message was perverted many times by evil power-hungry people. Don’t discount the possibility that his message contradicts the very institutions that “claim” him, for example the stuff about seeking wealth at people’s expense, being humble, the hubris of self-proclaimed divinity, i.e. the Pope and the Vatican. 

A small warning about the forums — they frequently are joined by cult-ish people trying to push an agenda. They frequently end up violating the rules and are banned, but until then they can cause a ruckus and grief for a person such as yourself. 

The primary goal here is [IMO] un-censor-able free discussion, archived and searchable, and that comes at the expense of troll-ability. I watch most of the stuff go by without comment, but it’s valuable to me as a research tool. 

Just the other day someone who is very religious and very conservative asked me about Westboro Baptist, based on a single comment I made. I was pleased to provide a link to search these forums, and can only hope that ultimately we can agree that Westboro Baptist does not share any of what sincere conservative Christians call “their values.” I mean really, if we can’t agree that Westboro goes too far, there isn’t any common ground to be had. Fortunately, my lack of belief and other peoples beliefs may find some common ground through understanding the mechanisms of the “Cult.” 

Cheers!

Hi Reechard, and many thanks for your kind welcome and input. And the warning about trolls on these forums. Uhm….not sure I can post this or more as it doesn’t contribute to the topic of this thread and perhaps would be considered getting it off track. Nonetheless, that you noticed I was here, am here, is very nice, and matters. waterlily

Am I concerned about an “orphaned” URL? Quite the reverse; This site may be gone tomorrow. I expect the forums will be permanent — as much as anything online is “permanent” given how “old” Internet really is.  The Internet is barely a teenager when you set it down next to the printing press.

What you are watching: most viewed video today (who ARE all these people)

They call this the “hockey stick”

Unfortunately, I don’t have a good explanation for why this video “took off” like it did today. It’s one of many I’ve collected in which Maddow covers the ongoing political scandal around the sect “The Family” and the “church” located on “C Street” in Washington DC.

The Family Values of C Street politicians

I have a similar problem with the ongoing popularity of a post about an “out and proud” neocon I ran into “in the wild.” The traffic it generates from all over the world is not explained by any search terms or referring web sites.

Enter Neocon Stage Right - Exit Neocon Stage Right

Rachel Maddow: White House crashers contacted Pentagon - Watch more Politics Videos at Vodpod.

After the White House gate crashers segment, Maddow airs audio from Nevada Sen. Ensign’s appearance on a Las Vegas radio program. Hal Turner caps the segment.

Scientology Watch - Australian Senator Nick Xenophon calls for senate inquiry

Xenophon discusses his views on Scientology, its tax-exempt status in Australia, and letters to him from former Scientology members. He calls it a “criminal organization.”

Among the alleged crimes cited by the Senator: false imprisonment, coerced abortions, embezelment, child abuse, perjury, persecution of ex-members, forced labor, blackmail and torture.

It is alleged one former member aborted her own child with a coat-hanger for fear of punishment.

“This organization must be investigated.”

“This is not about religious freedom. In Australia, there are no limits on what you can believe; but there are limits on how you can behave. It’s called “the law” and no-one is above it”

Update on 20100209 at 13:01 by richardwalker

Aaron Saxton was featured in Sen. Xenophone’s inquiry and appeared on Australian TV

YouTube: AaronSaxtonSpeaks

James Arthur Ray - Sweat Lodge Deaths

UPDATE: Ray pleads Not Guilty to Manslaughter

Ray pleads Not Guilty to Manslaughter || AzCentral.com

UPDATE: Intriguing spread sheet on Google Docs titled “Sedona links”

• Found via inbound link here on sheet 2
• New items are being collected; A third sheet has been added since I first found it

Google Docs Spreadsheet: “Sedona links”

UPDATE: Remove orphaned link & videos; append three follow-ups

“Spiritual Warrior” James Ray Puts Beverly Hills Home on Market 

Docs in fatal sweat lodge case show past problems

Sweat-lodge documents reveal chaotic scene

Self-help guru James Arthur Ray lists Beverly Hills house

[LA Times] [orphaned link]

Motivational speaker and author James Arthur Ray, the subject of the L.A. Times article “Sweat lodge deaths a new test for self-help guru,” has put his Beverly Hills home on the market for $5,495,000. From the report last month:

Three people collapsed in a sweat lodge during one of his $9,695-a-person “Spiritual Warrior” retreats outside Sedona, Ariz., and later died. The sheriff considers it a homicide investigation; no one has been charged.

Ray originally bought the 7,234-square-foot contemporary Mediterranean for $4 million in March, according to public records. Purchase details were reported in Hot Property.

— Lauren Beale

Ray is probably expecting massive “wrongful death” suits against him. Going liquid (and making the cash disappear) is a common tactic - for lowlife fraudsters.

We can thank Oprah Winfrey for this in part; she helped catapult Ray into fame when she promoted the book “The Secret” which featured James Ray.

Whether or not James Arthur Ray is charged and convicted of anything, he is responsible for this disaster. He remains unapologetic, and claimed he will continue his “spiritual warrior retreats.” He refunded one victim’s family with a check for $5000, roughly 1/2 the event fee.

Ray talks a good deal about money, and was a telemarketer for AT&T previously. He ignored the health and safety issues raised when any group is subjected to harsh physical or psychological distress. A waiver is meaningless as one can’t sign away such rights; in this case, the right to not be harmed by negligence. His very profitable “guru” empire provides a motivation of greed, so this may be more serious than simple negligence.

Coworker on Controversial Guru James Ray - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

October 26, 2009 - Maggie Rodriguez spoke with spiritual leader James Ray’s coworker Mickey Reynolds about the three people that died in one of Ray’s sweat lodge ceremonies.

Sweat Lodge Survivor Story - Beverley Bunn - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Beverley Bunn, Arizona sweat lodge ceremony survivor, spoke to Harry Smith about her memories of the tragic ordeal, and her feelings of abandonment by spiritual guru James Arthur Ray

http://www.latimes.com/

Update on 20091105 at 17:54 by richardwalker

“Spiritual Warrior” James Ray Puts Beverly Hills Home on Market | Phoenix News Blog

Self-help guru and “Spiritual Warrior” James Ray, the focus of a homicide investigation stemming from the deaths of three people in a sweat lodge ceremony near Sedona, has put his house up for sale.

Ray was also named in two lawsuits filed last week, both stemming from the sweat tent debacle — probably a good time to ditch some assets.

Ray’s 7,234-square-foot Beverly Hills home, according to a report in the LA Times, was bought by Ray back in March for about $4 million. He can probably afford it — snake oil is pricey these days.

Ray charged participants up to $10,000 to sit in the sweat tent that was made of tarps and blankets, and probably cost about $500 to put up.

Despite paying $4 million for the house just seven months ago, the “spiritual warrior” hopes to make a hefty profit on his palace. The listing price on Ray’s pad: $5.4 million.

Update on 20091228 at 18:00 by richardwalker

Docs in fatal sweat lodge case show past problems | KPIC.com

By FELICIA FONSECA Associated Press Writer

PRESCOTT, Ariz. (AP) - Documents released in the investigation of a fatal sweat lodge ceremony show that people lost consciousness and others suffered broken bones at past events led by self-help guru James Arthur Ray, but Ray largely ignored the medical problems that arose.

…

In documents released Monday, a man Ray hired to build the sweat lodge told investigators that he was hesitant to assist with the ceremony for a third year because participants previously had emerged in medical distress, and emergency help wasn’t summoned. Theodore Mercer said the latest ceremony was hotter than in years past, but Ray repeatedly told participants, “You are not going to die. You might think you are, but you’re not going to die.”

Mercer’s wife, Debra, told investigators that one man emerged from the sweat lodge halfway through the October ceremony believing he was having a heart attack and would die. She said that instead of summoning medical aid, Ray said “It’s a good day to die,” according to a search warrant affidavit.

When Ray was advised that two participants were unconscious near the end of the two-hour ceremony, Debra Mercer said Ray did not appear overly concerned and said they would be OK until the end….

Update on 20100114 at 20:07 by richardwalker

Sweat-lodge documents reveal chaotic scene | AZCentral.com

Hundreds of documents released Tuesday give the most complete picture yet of the events that took place at a sweat lodge outside Sedona that left three people dead and a spiritual guru’s empire on shaky ground.

The interview transcripts also provide insight into the task investigators face in putting together a case against James Arthur Ray more than three months after the sweat-lodge ceremony.

The accounts from participants and observers give conflicting versions of what took place at the Angel Valley Retreat Center on Oct. 8, including key points of whether Ray adequately prepared participants or discouraged people from leaving the sweltering structure as temperatures inside increased.

Yavapai County investigators are still trying to determine what responsibility Ray might have for the events that left three people dead and more than a dozen hospitalized, but a detective’s interview with a survivor in late October hints at the possibilities:

Detective Shonna Willingham told Stephen Ray (no relation to James Ray) that Arizona law enforcement can look at four culpable mental states for homicide: intentionally, knowingly, recklessly or negligently, all of which are based on what a reasonable person would do.

“But we are looking at a lot of avenues, but you hit the nail on the head that this isn’t intentionally or knowingly, it’s not a first and second degree,” Willingham is quoted as saying in October. “We are going to be fortunate to get either reckless or negligent.”

The investigation is ongoing, and James Ray has not been charged with any crime.

…

Update on 20100205 at 13:32 by richardwalker

Ray pleads Not Guilty to Manslaughter || AzCentral.com

After spending the night in a Camp Verde jail, self-help guru James Ray pleaded not guilty to charges of manslaughter before a judge Thursday morning.

Wearing an orange jumpsuit and shackles, Ray appeared calm during the hearing.

“Let’s not forget the reason our legal system is the envy of the world is because everyone is innocent unless proven otherwise.”, said Luis Li, one of Ray’s two attorneys. “This was a terrible tragedy, but it was an accident, not a crime,” Li said.

Ray faces three counts of manslaughter for the deaths of three participants of his October retreat in Sedona. The charges allege that during a sweat lodge ceremony, Ray’s recklessness led to their death. 18 other participants were hospitalized.

Ray’s other attorney, Tom Kelly told the judge that Ray’s bail of $5 million was unconscionable. The judge said he will review the request to lower bail before the next scheduled hearing, set for next Thursday. Until then, Ray will remain behind bars, his attorneys said…

Scientology Watch - St. Petersburg Times Special Report - Joe Childs Thomas Tobin

St. Petersburg Times - Special Report on Scientology

 

ABOUT THIS SPECIAL REPORT ON SCIENTOLOGY: Mark C. “Marty” Rathbun left the Church of Scientology staff in late 2004, ending a 27-year career that saw him rise to be a top lieutenant to Miscavige in the organization. For the past four years, he has lived a low-profile life in Texas. Some speculated he had died.

In February, Rathbun posted an Internet message announcing he was available to counsel other disaffected Scientologists.

“Having dug myself out of the dark pit where many who leave the church land,” he wrote, “I began lending a hand to others similarly situated.”

Contacted by the St. Petersburg Times, Rathbun agreed to tell the story of his years in Scientology and what led to his leaving. The Times interviewed him at his home in Texas, and he came to Clearwater to revisit some of the scenes he described.

…

The reporters interviewed the four defectors multiple times, and met with church spokesmen and lawyers for 25 hours.

Joe Childs, Managing Editor/Tampa Bay, ran the Times Clearwater operation dating to 1993 and supervised the newspaper’s Scientology coverage. He can be reached at childs@sptimes.com

Thomas C. Tobin has covered the Church of Scientology off and on for 20 years. He can be reached at tobin@sptimes.com

The result of the Times’ reporting is this multi-part special report, the latest in a long history of Scientology coverage by the Times. The newspaper won a Pulitzer Prize for a 1979 report on Scientology. And in the years since, with the church’s Clearwater headquarters in the Times’ prime coverage area, the in-depth reporting has continued. This project, as you will see, features the three days of in-depth reports from the St. Petersburg Times, as well as additional content for this Web presentation. Those additional pieces include video; a photo gallery; and links to previous coverage in the Times, including the Pulitzer-winning coverage.

This is the sort of investigative journalism we must support and protect. This report is available for purchase in electronic form; click through for the “free sample” of the electronic edition.

Part Three of this superb report was expanded recently, including new video interviews.

The video interviews with four Scientology defectors are very informative. Rathbun corroborates the other three authoritatively, because he was in charge of internal Scientology surveillance and intelligence, taking orders directly from and reporting to David Miscavige.

Scientology: Man Overboard | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Once the No. 2 church officer in Clearwater, Don Jason ran and wound up in a locked cabin aboard the church cruise ship, the Freewinds.

Scientology: Marty Rathbun “Escaping Freewinds” | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Rathbun tells the other side of Don Jason’s story - the response to Jason’s escape.

Scientology: Chased by their Church | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

For years, the Church of Scientology chased down and brought back staff members who tried to leave.

Ex-staffers describe being pursued by their church and detained, cut off from family and friends and subjected to months of interrogation, humiliation and manual labor.

Scientology: Jackie Wolff video | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Jackie Wolff - Joined Scientology: at age 25, in 1980; joined Sea Org in 1982. Age: 54
Left Sea Org: 2004

Career highlights: Personal steward to Miscavige and his wife, personnel director, supervisor of E-meter assembly line.

Now: Single, marketing director for California construction and grading company.
“We didn’t want them to find us. We wanted to just kind of disappear into the woodwork.”

Scientology: Marty Rathbun on “blow drill” | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Rathbun on how to hande a “blow drill” - a codified series of steps to get someone “back to the base”

Scientology: Mark Fisher video | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times - Watch more Videos at Vodpod.

Mark Fisher on being attacked by Miscavige - “the last straw”

Here is my complete set of videos tagged “Scientology”

Betsy Perkins: “I just want to get on with my life” after Scientology

Sixteen years later, Betsy Perkins is sobbing as she talks about the day she ran away from Scientology.

“I thought I was handing in my ticket to eternity,” she says.

Now 56, a graphic artist in Dallas, she says she is going public to offer her own “first-hand account of what happened to a person who was in there.”

She spent 17 years in Scientology’s work force, the Sea Org, moved by the church’s mantra that Scientologists held the future of the planet in their hands…

Click through for the latest internal Scientology document leaked: “Treason”

From the Times archives: More on Scientology, David Miscavige and Lisa McPherson

St Petersburg Times: Scientology Special Report (Sample)